Ovih dana naiđoh na još jedan noviji blog na temu visočke pseudoarheološke ublehe. Piše ga osoba s uvjerenjem da je Osmanagić lopov, ali i da Visočica ipak jeste gigantska piramidalna konstrukcija obrađena ljudskom rukom. Prema blogeru Omerbashichu, to je u antici uradila neka velika rimska vojska. Ovdje ispod je moj komentar gospodinu Omerbashichu, koji prenosim na svom blogu za slučaj da zbog nečeg ne bude objavljen na spomenutom blogu.
Dear Mr. Omerbashich,
Warm greetings to you and my deepest congratulations on your very interesting blog. Thank you for posting on your blog the photo from our APWR collection – the one on the right side featuring bulldozer activities at the Pljesevica hill. Please feel free to use more of our photo material from the same APWR gallery: http://apwr.fotopic.net/.
Concerning your theories about Visocica and other Bosnian hills being shaped into huge pyramids by Romans for military purposes... I would strongly recommend to you to get hold of and read the monograph on the history of Visoko by a group of authors, published in 1984. The chapter (some 50 pages) concerning the 'Roman period' in the region is written by dr. Ivo Bojanovski, a renown Bosnian expert on the Late Antiquity and especially on the system of the Roman roads in the Balkans (hodology). To me, it would be very difficult to believe that this man who studied Late Antiquity in Bosnia for decades and who was able to locate actual portions of Roman roads in the Visoko valley (and in other places) based solely on toponyms and unusual looking formations – would miss such a huge Roman undertaking as the one you are describing.
Furthermore, as Bojanovski explaines, there were no such huge Roman garrisons permanently settled in the region - as you suggest - simply because after the turbulent years of the Octavius' wars in the Illyricum, the local population became pretty much Romanized, as evident on the remains of various stellae of the local noblemen (principes), the Romanized Desitiats . Their prime seat was concentrated around the nearby town of Breza – some 10km from Visoko – and there are more remains from that period than in the Visoko valley. However, as I already quoted from the mentioned monograph in the previous post, the Visocica hill slopes are abundant with fragments from prehistoric and medieval periods.
Also, before you proceed with postulating your theory, I would strongly recommend to you to take into account the collection of artefacts and reproductions from the Late Antiquity from the Franciscan gymnasium in Visoko, collected in the wider area over the years.
Otherwise, without placing your theories into this well-known historical context, one could get an impression that you are only criticizing Osmanagic in order to justify the whole idea behind this project and the activities of the Foundation. What is needed is a sober contextual scientific approach, not just another pyramid-shaped fantasy.
Sincerely,
Stultitia
P.S. Kako se moglo nekako i pretpostaviti od čovjeka koji nedostatkom dokaza potvrđuje dokazivost svoje tvrdnje („Finally, it seems plausible that it was precisely the Romans who shaped Visočica, because not only that small-item artifacts from the Roman era are missing . . . “), gospodin Omerbashich je s nokta otpilio mogućnost da je neki tamo Ivo Bojanovski – bosanski arheolog, historičar, profesor klasičnih jezika, hodolog (ne, to nije onaj koji hoda!), autor bezbrojnih stručnih članaka i radova, među kojima je najkapitalnije ono Dolabelin sistem cesta u rimskoj provinciji Dalmaciji, mogao znati išta o rimskim i antičkim predmetima i temama (pa i onim inženjerijskim, kao hodolog) koje je izučavao cijelog svog života. Da mi je samo znati gdje li se ovaj “multidisciplinarni” pristup već dao sresti: nalazi iz tog-i-tog perioda ne postoje jer ih ja nikad nisam vidio; djela tih-i-tih stručnjaka nisu relevantna jer ih ja nisam čitao i/li nisu iz moje struke; o toj-i-toj temi se još ništa ne zna jer ja o njoj ne znam ništa; itd. . . . ?
7 komentari:
Hi,
here is the mail I have made this evening to Dr Omerbashich :
Dear Dr Omerbashich,
I read your blog "Bosnian "pyramids": hills shaped by Romans" with interest, and would like to submit to you a few questions and comments. I tried to post this on your blog, but somehow my browser won't let me see the characters for the visual verification.
1) There seems to be a mistake among the pictures you put on the right side of the blog: the photograph you call "Stone Age hoax, or artifact removed?", is not a hoax at all, nor does it belong to the Bosnian "pyramids" location; it comes from Qurta, south of Egypt, see here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070711-egypt-artwork.html and there: http://www.net.hr/znanost/page/2007/07/16/0114006.html.
2) In your post "Erosion-measures for military purposes", you seem to be speaking mostly of Visocica: "A first look at Visočica suggests...", "seem pretty evident in parts of Visočica...", "The task of securing Visočica's slopes...", "The Visočica pavement...", "Another indication of human intervention in case of Visočica slopes stems from the levelness of all the apparently paved terraces" and so on. However, the description you make of "paved terraces", "double-layered stone slabs" or "flat horizontal terraces", as well as the photographs you provide to illustrate these phenomena (dblslb.jpg and image003.jpg), do not pertain at all to Visocica, which shows mostly massive slabs of conglomerates with a pronounced dip, but rather to Pljesevica and Vratnica. Don't you fear that making such a "collage" of features from different locations could quite weaken your thesis and be contrary to the scientific position you wish to present?
3) You seem to consider that, while most of the features Mr. Osmanagic uses as arguments are purely "natural geological features", some of them (uniform thickness, wide cracks, double-layered stone slabs, various "paving" or "cementing" for instance) could be of "anthropological origin". Did you ever consult with a sedimentologist about these features, or with any geologist used to field-work? I understand you are a geodesist, and you may not be aware of all the tricky features weathering and tectonics can produce in sedimentary layers.
4) Your hypothesis about the tunnels being sapping works is interesting, but I cannot help to wonder: how long and deep are usually the mines, be it during the Roman or the Medieval period? As far as I know, the Ravne tunnel is almost *three* kilometers from Visocica, on the other side of a series of hills (and farther still from Pljesevica); and the KTK tunnel, if closer to Visocica, is on the other side of the Fojnicka river, and about 2 kilometers from Pljesevica. Did you ever encounter such length for mines? And from what I remember from my history lessons, mining was used rather in non-coherent rock, when parts of the tunnels (mainly KTK tunnel) go through hard sandstone layers.
Let me stress that I am not trying to defend Mr. Osmanagic hypothesis, on the contrary, as you will surely understand if you give a look to my website. But your alternative explanation of some features of the Visoko "pyramids" is not, in my opinion, much better founded if you do not take into account everything the relevant specialists (archaeologists, historians, geologists...) have to say about the region, its history and its geology.
Regards,
Irna
PS. I'll paste a copy of this mail on Stultitia's blog, where I see she has already posted a letter to you.
ma djesi dosad tako pametna bila
Bit ce interesantno ako odgovori.
A i ako ne nema veze. Vidim pronasli su te i prvi anonimusi pireamidioti i na ovome blogu. Sad ce opet biti 100 komentara po textu. Samo da nebudu opet oni sto pocinju ispocetka: strane svijeta, pravilna geometrije, pi bla,bla,bla
Stultitia, sve cestitke na analizama.
Pitam se odakle se ovi elokventni piramidioti, kao Anonuimno, pojave. Je li vidis ti samo ove nepojmive snage argumenata! Pa, jadni Anonimno, de nam bogati izvali jednu pametnu, tako da svi shvatimo znacaj ovog najveceg otkrica stoljeca i milenija. Unaprijed hvala,
HoustonPiramidiot.
ovo samo informativno... ovo mi je poslo jedan komsija koji je zainteresiran jesu li piramide prave ili krive. malo je poduzi post, nadam se da vam ne smeta. stiglo je u emailu od
"From: Nacionalni Kongres Republike BiH
[mailto:Bosanski_Kongres@hdmagazine.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:31 PM"
...
Bosnian Geophysicist Uncovers a Pyramid Scheme
A rational explanation of the Visoko “phenomena”
Dear Dr. Khavroshkin,
I am writing in reference to your locally televised statement at a Sarajevo press-conference of 28 July, on your involvement in the so-called "Bosnian pyramids project". While describing your recent preliminary geophysical
measurements, you asserted that humans had shaped Visocica hill. As a geophysicist, I have no reason to doubt your measurements interpretation (even though early interpretations may seem quite premature at this point). However, your being a scientist of international repute gives a whole new twist to one unfortunate story that has no counterpart in damaging my country's image.
Let me note at the outset that this hill (as you correctly call it yourself) seems semi-shaped, not fully shaped. However, even if semi-shaped, that geometrical peculiarity couldn't be due to some 10+ kyr civilization as the
man who dragged you into his world of deceit would have it. This has been so well established by researchers in the past, that I won't even quote any references. I would also like to inform you that our culture minister Mr.
Gavrilo Grahovac has recently called for an investigation into that man's tax fraud; see yesterday's edition of Science magazine, at:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol317/issue5837/newsmakers.dtl.
The oldest known archaeological artifact found anywhere on Visocica is a Roman observation post sitting on top of the hill. This comes as no surprise, since Bosnia used to be a most important regional crossroads of ancient times, with the Drina River serving as the border between the
Western and Eastern Roman Empires. Given that some important supply
corridors, connecting East and West (North and South) traversed my country at that time, Roman rulers (senators) and their successors obviously had an enormous interest in Bosnia. Indeed, the high-level Roman military presence is found throughout the country; the military-post remains at the Visocica peak being one such artifact.
Therefore it seems most – if not only – plausible that it was Roman
legionaries who had shaped Visocica too, applying an ancient military tactics of ironing the hill-slopes (note: only those overlooking the river Bosna corridor!). Because, what's the purpose of an observation post unless you secured it against siegecraft first? As a geodesist, I can see why they would have set it out parallel to the cardinal lines and then corrected it for the Moon orbital plane inclination (some 5 degrees to the ecliptic):
moonlight could thus (under always favorable conditions), assuming clear skies, naturally expose any adversaries attacking the post. Once moonlit, the attackers could then be deflected by pouring molten lead or boiling water (oil) on them, or by rolling stone balls from the post down the slopes, and so on.
Similarly, I am amazed by how unaware people are of the network of tunnels (found inside Visocica) resembling an artifact of the sapping – the most typical military tactics for conquering ancient fortifications. I'm sure
your grandchildren' encyclopedias contain more detail on those primitive military tactics, as I remember such readings being the "Harry Potter" of my childhood. Advanced reader should see Epitoma rei militaris ("Military matters") by Flavius Vegetius Renatus (www.intratext.com/ixt/LAT0189 ).
Obviously, given a whole slew of feasible military-relic explanations, chances for a 10+ kyr civilization in Bosnia are virtually none!
Finally, even if one assumes, as the only alternative, that Romans hadn't leveled the Visocica slopes for tactical purposes, but in sapping a settlement Illyrians-Teutans had built even earlier on the artificially excavated/cut limestone terraces of Visocica (resembling the 1st century BC
Fetele Albe monumental findings in the Orastie Mts. in Dacia – Sureanu Mts. in present-day Romania), this still would mean that expert archaeologists, not geophysicists, are the ones to make such calls, if required.
Therefore, without getting into motives for your involvement, I urge you to consider immediately withdrawing from this outrageous "project". I say
outrageous because from the time of its inception – some two years ago – no mainstream scientist has supported it in any way. Those who opened their minds for just a moment were swiftly sucked into a smutty media campaign that twisted their words beyond recognition. Therefore, your prolonged
involvement could not only harm your repute, but could also weaken the position of science in a society devastated by corruption and ruse.
Respectfully yours,
Mensur Omerbashich, Ph.D.
geophysicist & geodesist
Sarajevo
Hi, the entire discussion between myself and Dr Omerbashich, till today, is here : http://irna.lautre.net/Pyramids-shaped-by-Romans.html
Irna
Well, I think that Dr Omerbashich's nationalist agenda is now clear, judging by his last posts on his blog. This has nothing to do with archaeology at all...
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